vood

...it was funny that they left the topic after several days of disparaging veganism, instead of explaining why published research contradicts their advice. I’m referring to “vegan diet linked to...,” Re: "vegan" Diet Linked To B-12 Deficiency

To add to the published research posted by others a few weeks ago and since they didn't address some of John Ball's, et al's, OTHER spurious claims, here’s more, with supporting, non-activist experts as sources:

#1. Vegans do not suffer iron deficiencies any more than other Americans. (Am J Clin Nutr. 1994;59 (suppl):1233S-1237S)
This is what happens people get their nutritional ‘education’ from an internet forum instead of research such as the above.

>>> "vegan" diets are linked with B-12 deficiency.
>> And iron deficiency, zinc deficiency, etc.
> I wonder how vegans could claim that their diet is "naturally fitting human beings" if people develop critical vitamin deficiencies while on it.

#2. Vegetarians' zinc levels in hair, saliva, etc. are also normal. (Freeland-Graves JH, Bodzy PW, Epright MA. Zinc status of vegetarians. J Am Diet Assoc. 1980;77:655-661.)
But most (50+%) Americans are zinc-deficient; surely they all aren’t vegan, and what does that say about the naturalness of the typical NON-vegan diet? (www.klkntv.com/Global/story.asp?S=1230416, )
All that this really is, is that there are people who flub any diet; veganism isn't any more difficult or less nutritious, but like any diet (including the standard, meat-based, 'I'm not on a diet' diet :-) ), it has a share of people who eat wrong.

#3. And finally, as to whether B-12 is dietitically necessary or the human body produces enough and whether non-vegans are also B12-deficient, as Pearl et al pointed out, that's still being debated; a good source is the ADA. B-12 is deficient in most **Western**, vegan diets. But in addition to the research others submitted in favor of veganism, what John Ball failed to consider is...

B-12 accumulates on the outsides of vegetables from animals just being near the crops; same with water. Humans need only 6 mcg/day (perhaps less) -- which isn't even as heavy as 1 dust particle! :-) -- so vegans should get enough. Still, most Western vegans supplement with synthetic B-12 and I would, too (whether vegan or not); a few vegans also get B-12 by not washing vegetables too thoroughly, which is more typical outside of Western nations. In the modern era, we’ve learned to wash our vegetables because other ill side-effects can come from anything unclean (e.g. botulism), but it’s possible that our ancestors could have met their bodies’ B-12 requirements as vegans (even IF they needed B-12 back then); obviously, they started eating more and more meat, but when and why -- and which hominid(s) were even our ancestors -- is still being debated. Some vegans (if they do it only for ethical reasons) might also eat insects to get B-12, since there’s little proof that most insects can feel pain since they lack the amygdala and most or all other limbic functions, but it's still being debated. Or they might raise their own cows/chickens and take moderate amounts of milk/eggs, without slaughtering or doping the animals. Of course, it's also possible even to eat nothing from the Animal Kingdom, yet still be healthier than average (see “In conclusion...”).

#4. Unlike my first 3 points, this isn't a specific reply to their accusations of 'deficiencies,' but it always strikes me as funny when someone screams, “Those vegans aren’t natural,” then grab some cheese or milk. Duh, it's not natural to drink milk beyond weening age, nor is it natural to drink another species' milk. ;-)

In conclusion:
*Some* anti-vegans are also driven by agendas instead of by science (as they accused the vegans of); so are *some* vegans, but it's funny to see so many scientifically-proven falsehoods from this small group of accusers, rather than the vegans they accused of lying. :-)

If we define the ‘natural’ diet to be the one which our bodies have evolved into so that we get the greatest lifespan and quality-of-life (and I’m not sure how else we could define it, but am open to suggestions...), vegans win in ‘naturalness,’ hands-down: see Key TH, Thorogood M, Appleby PM, Burr ML. Dietary habits and mortality in 11,000 vegetarian and health conscious people: results of a 17-year follow up. BMJ. 1996;313:775-779 or www.worldhealth.net/p/267,1855.html . Although I tend to think the body thrives on a nearly-vegan diet, not a vegan one (see WebMD, search for “rural Chinese diet”; they live as long, perhaps even longer than vegans, but the difference is minimal and Asian genetics may play a role), it's too close to call. Western meateaters' longevity is far, far behind both of those plant-based diets'. Vegans also suffer less from non-fatal maladies while alive, such as Alzheimer’s (#8 killer in America: www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/alzheimr.htm), IMPOTENCE :-) (the arteries in the penis as a network of many small-diameter ones, just like the coronaries), diabetes, and vegans have stronger immune systems overall (See “ADA Position Paper on Vegetarianism).

One more quote:
“I find it amusing how they attibute low rates of cancer to a diet ... alone, and not to the fact that these people eat very little due to lack of money, and exercise daily.”

My dear genius, did you see the part where they noted how they corrected for ‘lifestyle’ and 'socio-economic factors’?? ;-) See ‘study design’ at http://www.nutrition.cornell.edu/Chi...ct/index.html. Also look for ‘methodology’ in their formal paper.

“Plus, their life expectancy is probably low enough to not permit many people to reach age when cancers rise in occurrence.”

Did you notice that many of the participants were from Taiwan? Taiwan is a modern nation, and has the exact same life-expectancy as the USA. But I could have already guessed you’re not exactly a world-traveler; mongs can’t afford the airfare, hahaha.
Also, even the Chinese, without much medicine, are only 4 years behind our avg. lifespan. (We obviously rely more on fixing health problems, but their diet/exercise is so good that they prevent them; see WebMD then search “rural Chinese diet”; again, by matching a non-exercising chinese to a non-exercising Westerner and exercising Westerner to exercising Chinese, you can correct for non-dietary 'lifestyle' habits.).

“And to being able to taunt these vegans, also."

If there were any truth to your nutritional claims, I’m sure some would feel taunted. But since the truth hurts more than anything, it’s you who should feel taunted. ;-) I'm sure most people would be ashamed if friends/neighbors could see them passing on medical advice with absolutely no reasons or research citations to support your claims, whilst claiming the other side is doing so until they did present plenty of supporting research.... A problem with the internet is bull$_1++ing @**holes like you lot.

vood

> [Vegans] also have a problem with explaining why, if vegan is natural, humans can't manufacture all the amino acids they need from such a diet. ... They also have to explain why our appendix is no longer a fully functional second stomach but just a nuisance.
#1: Actually, formal logic dictates that YOU would need to explain why we developed the ability to manufacture the other 10 or so amino acids, if we were still meant to ingest these by eating animal on a regular basis? (i.e. it begs the question: Why would we have evolved this ability to live solely on vegetation if we weren't meant to use the ability?)
#2: Before I even get into an explanation of multiple stomachs, you (Patricia) need to explain why we have a long intestinal tract typical of apes -- our cousins who are vegan save for an occasional insect -- AND why we have claws and fangs which are about as vestigial as our appendix (achem!!), AND why our closest cousins’ fangs had never even evolved to eat meat, but for chewing heavy VEGETATION and self-defense, according to these experts:

www.wildlifer.com/schlorff/goril.html “Their massive canine teeth evolved primarily for displays of aggression and to deal with their highly fibrous diet of various types of plants such as bamboo which they consume in quantities that may exceed 60 pounds per day for adults.”
www.angela-meder.de/publik/eep.pdf “the leading silverbacks can sometimes engage in a fight to the death, mainly using their canines”
http://www.hitchams.suffolk.sch.uk/s...ns/gorilla.htm “larger canines for ripping flesh in attack and defence”
www.safari.co.za/africa_GORILLA_2.html “large molars for chewing food and large canines used for biting”
www.leeds.ac.uk/bms/teaching/ modules/humb1060/anth03.pdf “What are the functions of this canine/premolar unit in male hominids? Obviously useful in some feeding behaviour, but that can’t be the answer because males and females have the same food and feed in the same ways, and females have small canines. So the answer must lie in something males do and females don’t - displays of aggression. The big teeth are rarely used in fighting, but are used to intimidate rivals...”
www.geocities.com/osarsif/bio.htm “the powerful gorilla, with its awesome fangs -- fangs still used to rip and consume heavy vegetation”

You see, we descended from primates, but Carnivora developed *separately* from primates and ourselves, and their fangs (and shorter intestinal tracts) also developed separately from primates, and for separate purposes. I feel sorry for people who didn’t pick up on that in high school bio, esp. when they think they're higher on the evo scale than Bigfoot. ;-) Those who post spurious nutritional claims without scientific support nor even a clue, then accuse their opponents of being the only ones making spurious claims, might even be lower. ;-)

Even gorillas don’t eat any animals larger than insects, and they obviously don’t use those big fangs to rip an equally *huge* chunk of flesh from a ... dung beetle, ;-) and so you’d need to explain:
- why gorillas would have fangs if they eat no large animals; and
- why apes have only one stomach, like we do, yet they eat no mammals. (like some of us do)

“I am the master over all those veals, pigs, salmons, and whatnot.”

If you feel inferior to other humans (wonder why that would be? ;-) ), do you really feel so powerful beating up on the defenseless? After all, it takes no power to beat up on THEM... :-) LOL, I doubt that any member of this species, let alone others, want to be around such a powerless, control-freaked nonce.

“Not nearly as hideous as what happens to animals during planting, application of pesticides, irrigation, and harvest. They have no qualms about poisoning or slicing an animal to death”

I don’t suppose you’ve happened to notice that most vegans prefer organic (no pesticides) and humane crop methods? ;-)

“vegan diets, if followed without the use of supplements, invariably lead to B-12 and other deficiencies.”

This was already disproven by others' research citations. But here’s the funny part:

With OR without supplements, look at the numerous diseases which meat-heavy** diets lead to...
**The Food Pyramid and the diet of those healthy Chinese I referred to, indicate that 'heavy' should mean anything more than 10% animal products, and really -- how many adults eat a vegetarian lunch then ONLY 8 oz of steak?

You've got the #1 killer, heart disease, which you have 25 TIMES more likelihood of suffering than a vegetarian (not even a full-on vegan)
(too many studies to even mention, but here’s one for hearts JAMA [Jrnl of Amer Med Assoc], 173:884, 1960)

You've got cancer, which you have about 50% more risk of than a vegetarian. (too many studies again, and even the 5PM news has carried the one on how 3 cups of milk yielded a 30% increased risk of prostate cancer; 3 cups, BTW, isn’t even a whole 100% of the US RDA for Calcium, so it essentially says that to get enough Ca from milk, you need to risk cancer. Call me crazy, but I’d much rather get Ca AND Mg from green veggies (Milk has 0% Mg, which is as NEEDED for strong bones as Ca is), and not have milk’s sulfurous amino acids -- which cause acidosis, and to neutralize that acidity, your body leaches most of the milk’s Ca right back out of your bones anyway!
See American Journal of Clinical Nutrition 1979;32(4), and
Feskanich D, Willett WC, Stampfer MJ, Colditz GA. Milk, dietary calcium, and bone fractures in women: a 12-year prospective study. Amer Jrnl Public Health 1997;87:992.)

You've also got more constipation, IMPOTENCE (yes, the arteries to the penis are a network of many, small-diameter vessels, much like the Coronaries :-) ), diabetes, obesity -- and these all carry non-fatal quality-of-life issues in addition to it all... The list of maladies just goes on (but I'll spare you ;-P ), and it goes on and you DIE earlier than vegans (see above citations), BECAUSE you *weren't* built to eat much meat/dairy/eggs, if any at all.